If I can be serious for a moment, I’d like to talk about Terri Schiavo and the controversy around the whole incident. There’s a lot of anger as the issue seems stark to many, and I think Michael Schiavo has the potential to be the next O.J. Simpson in the way he’s shunned by much of society.
As for the starvation issue, Bill Quick recently lost his father and writes about how he died here. That incident certainly is different in how his father chose not to eat himself, but it is some more firsthand information on whether starvation really is a horrible death.
As for myself, I think my feelings on the issue are affected by my grandfather who suffered from Alzheimer’s. He first was diagnosed when I was quite young – maybe five – and didn’t pass away until I was 21. For at least the last decade, he couldn’t communicate at all and was confined to constant care in a nursing home. This didn’t stop my grandmother and my mother from visiting a number of times each week often with us grandchildren coming along. During college, I made it a point each time I came home to visit my grandfather.
He died during finals week, and I wasn’t able to make it to the funeral. I didn’t see the need, anyway, as it shouldn’t have been sad; his mind died many years ago. It should have been a relief. Yet, his actual death ended up hitting me hard, making me face what I really lost. I can only imagine what it was like for those who knew him longer such as his children and his wife.
I’m probably meandering; there’s a lot of emotion here and it’s hard to come to some exact point. I just know I have sympathy for the parents because as long as their daughter still lives, at least she’s still… there. I frame the issue this way: if she is in a PVS, then it matters not to her if she’s still living and thus giving comfort to her parents. If she isn’t, then it’s murder to kill her. Michael Schiavo may have the legal standing to kill Terri, but he doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on from what I see. If the parents are willing to take the burden of caring for her, why deny that to them? If he so believes she’s in a PVS, then why would it matter to her if she still lives? I don’t know his true motives, but it does seem quite callous. Perhaps I’m missing something.
And I’m tired of talk about the politics involved here. Maybe I’m not being cynical enough, but I think people like Jeb Bush see Terri’s starvation as a life being unjustly taken, and, when life is at stake, isn’t it always laws be damned? Should anyone ever die to preserve the principle of checks and balances? This is no end of federalism or the judiciary, it’s just human nature reacting to one extreme situation.
Well, I think that’s all I wanted to say. Certainly have your own say in the comments.
Well put… especially the point about ‘Should anyone ever die to preserve the principle of checks and balances?’.
What I hate about all of this is that the left somehow sees this as a victory.
A woman died. Nobody wins.
JoshG,
I’m not quite sure it’s a left-right thing… only maybe in that those who hate Bush may be instinctively against whatever he’s for.
I’ve been part of 4 of these things for different family memebers, there is no good decision, no good outcome. It’s frustrating to watch all of this go on without the one thing I’d like to see, some tests to find out what Terri’s condition really is.
OK not to break the tone of the post, but the little number down there I fill in to comment, that is my employee number at work…just how much information do you have on me FrankJ?
I agree, if you’re mentally not there, it doesn’t matter to you if your body is alive or not. Therefore, since the human mind is not something we understand perfectly, it is better to keep the person alive with a small hope of recovery. No one recovers from being dead.
I wonder if by some miracle she does recover. Could she then have her husband charged with attempted murder?
Peggy Noonan had a good article on the Schiavo case. http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110006460 I never thought I would see the day when a person would be starved because she is an inconvenience.
Frank, that is one of the more sane things i have heard on this stuff in a while.
This issue is difficult in so many ways. The fact that it has dragged on for so many years makes it that much more difficult. I think that there needs to be many changes in the laws regarding the right to die and terminal and pvs cases. Instead of letting her die by starvation, for example, it would be very easy to give her something that would painlessly let her die. As for who is right, our own desires shape what we think. I would never want to be kept alive like that for so long, whether or not I was in PVS or not, and if I did wake up after a dozen years in a coma, I would be righteously pissed off at whoever kept me alive. Therefore I tend to believe the husband and she should be let go. As sad as it is for the parents, they really don’t have a leg to stand on and they need to let go. It’s a travesty of justice that it has dragged on this long and that the government has tried to interfere in something so far out of its purview.
I hope she wakes up. My friend saw this talk show where a man came on there who was in a similar situation. He had brain damage, but he was lucid and able to conduct an interview. They had already made the funeral arrangements for him.
“Should anyone ever die to preserve the principle of checks and balances?”
Well tens of thousands died to preserve state rights.
Starvation may be relatively painless, but that is not what Terri faces. She will die of dehydration. Have you ever been so thirsty you were in a state of panic, and would do anything for a drink of water? I have, and it is not a good feeling. Plus, when you are extremely dehydrated, you start to get horrendous headaches, and your muscles start cramping. THIS IS NOT A PLEASANT WAY TO DIE.
Thank you, Frank. Well said.
Frank, thank you so much for your thoughtful words. My grandpa died last May of brain cancer and that pain is still really fresh for me…I understand that the issue of grandpa and Terri Schiavo are somehow related even if you can’t articulate why.
This is a great site. Keep up the good work.
“Well tens of thousands died to preserve state rights.”
Yes, but they did so willingly, not because their spouses saw them as a burden.
Despite your masthead, this is one of the most rational articles on Terri I’ve seen. I agree: well said.
Yes, but they did so willingly, not because their spouses saw them as a burden.
You know I hear this a lot. The problem is that the reason Michael Schiavo has won all these cases is not because he is the legal guardian and can do what he wants. It is because he has conclusively shown that this is what Terri would have wanted too.
My grandmother had a series of strokes. They slowly robbed her of herself until she had little more than the mind of an infant. It was hard on everyone involved. She died of pancreatic cancer unrelated to the strokes after a year of being taken care of at our home. We realized that we would miss her very much, but that she was also herself again in a better place and that we would see her again.
“It is because he has conclusively shown that this is what Terri would have wanted too.”
Yeah, because saying “She said this is what should would have wanted” after using her condition to win a malpractise lawsuit (there’s no way a jury would have ruled in his behalf if they knew the money was not going to end up being used t ojeep her alive, his reason for the lawsuit, or so he said. But merely so Michael could start a new life) doesn’t sound conclusive. The reason he’s won is that the majority of the judges above the disctrict level won’t hear the case.
My wife & I made promises to each other in case something similar happens to either of us long before this became news. There is such a thing as quality of life, and both of us agree quality of life is NOT existing from a hospital bed. These are our decisions and both families know how we feel. I can understand Michael’s drive to follow through if he made such a promise to his wife as I’ve made to mine. But, I don’t understand some of the other things he’s done or not allowed to happen to take care of Terri. In any case, I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes. People tend to make things simple then make judgements when they are rarely that simple. Terri will probably never improve even if she is allowed to live. If I was in her place, I wouldn’t want to be here – let me go and get on with your lives. But that’s me, YMMV.
Frank, please start being funny again. Terri Schiavo really isn’t all that funny.
From everything I have read – and it is a lot. There needs to be something to save. Terri, to me, has no lights on up in her head. She has the “breath” part of her brain working – but the rest is atrophied (sp). This meaning she is in neutral and anything she would be in the future is less than what she is now. I agree with the quality statement. You have to ask yourself what is the quality of life that she has – what is the quality of life for her husband and her parents. 15 years of waiting on all sides does not spell a good quality of life for those that wait. I have myself come to terms with death – and what it means. On religious sides it means I meet the maker – on the eartly side it means I do not have to deal with all of the flying crap that makes this life all difficult. Maybe the Shindlers have not yet gotten to that point yet. Maybe they cannot let go because they do not understand what happens afterward?
Dave
Life is the quality. Life is its own value. Sometimes, like for Terri, life is bitterly unfair. We don’t necessarily have the right to then take that situation into our own hands. Some things aren’t ours to deal with; we don’t have the right.
And there is a huge arrogance and insensitivity in deciding for someone else what the quality (which really means value) of their life is. I had a boss who was a quadraplegic, a life I would never want for myself. Does that mean that someone else could decide for him that that was a life not worthing living? For that matter, I have a cousin with MS and another with diabetes. My grandmother has a heart condition. I’m perfectly healthy — does that make my quality of life, the VALUE of my life, higher than theirs?
My dad has no desire to ever be on a ventilater, heart machine or feeding tube; it’s something he’s told us for years, and (God forbid) I would respect his wishes. But he has told us them, specifically, over years. A few comments in a casual conversation in someone’s early 20’s is not the same thing as a serious decision. Terri Schiavo never made a decision. And now she is alive, in an altered state. She has a life, and that life has value just because it exists. Life is a precious, precious gift; it is also a responsibility and a cross to bear, and for a multitude of reasons (not just health), one we don’t have a right to end because we (or someone “near” to us) doesn’t value it.
…It is because he has conclusively shown that this is what Terri would have wanted too….
I agree. Although it is easy to portray Michael Schiavo as a completely compromised character here, that is besides the point. The point here–as sad as it is–is that we have to ask: What would Terri want?
There are only losers here. Michael–because he’s been throughly excoriated for pursuring what he believes were his wife’s wishes. The Schindlers–because they’re losing their daughter. The politicians (of both stripes)–because they’ve been exposed as the snakes that they are for using this for their own means. The Courts–for exposing the difference between what is legal and what is compassionate. And of course, Terri–who has had to lay there for 15 years while this circus decides her fate.
The other tragedy here is not that Terri will die, but how. The process of executing our most vile criminals includes a ceremonial last meal. We take great pains to make the euthanisia of our beloved pets easy and comfortable. That the best death we can offer Terri is deprive her of food and water until she is dead ought to make everyone involved ashamed.
However, my cynicism says that before shame moves the movers to productive action here, they’ll be back to pandering and looking for a way to make their opponents look bad.
I am looking forward to happier thoughts.
Frank. I wouldn’t add anything to that or take anything away.
Now, if we could only get the same kind of media attention to these out of control, un-rehabilitatable child rapers and get rid of this damn catch and release program. Another Amber Alert today (or yesterday?)
How about Amber Open Season Alert. Who ever finds him gets to blow his useless &^%&^*& brains out.
It’s possible that the GOP knew this case was bound to lose in the courts.
If that’s the case is it possible to their question their motives?
If I were governor and had the legislature backing me In writing, I would Ignore the court. Take possession of Terri, To determine via
a YEAR’s worth of observation, FULL tests, and therapy if she has truly is in a full PVS. If government were to find her in a PVS, I would sedate her deeply and remove her feeding tube.
Ignoring the courts has been done before, in time of crisis. Is this such
a time? The courts are do not stand ABOVE the other branches of goverment. If the GOP did not
intend to go all OUT they should not have gotten involved in the first place as it means they really didn’t believe in their “cause”
to hell with Terry Shiavo
quit feeding Kristy Ally
I don’t know if you people are aware of this, but she is awake. She’s a mess, but that’s partially because she hasn’t gotten any rehab whatsoever in 15 years. She’s been stuck in that damn room, and hasn’t been allowed out.
Furthermore, there are serious questions as to whether or not her husband put her into that situation to begin with. This isn’t a “loving husband” by any stretch of the imagination.
Sorry, but this is murder, plain and simple.
-ron
“…I think people like Jeb Bush see Terri’s starvation as a life being unjustly taken…”
Thanks so much for writing that! Because THAT is exactly what it is all about! I thought you were going to write some liberal dribble – “I think people like Jeb Bush see Terri’s starvation as a tool to forward their Neo-Nazi Conservative Christian agenda.” Sorry for thinking that.
While I don’t have the emotional energy (or time) to read all of the comments on this post, I just want to point out that my mother-in-law died of Alzheimers. (No mother-in-law jokes please!)
Your experience is not unique. When she passed away, for us it was also not a “sad” event. I think this is a common reaction to the passing of an Alzheimers victim.
But notice that this doesn’t give us the “right” to kill them prematurely. If even “life” itself is not sacred, then nothing is sacred. This is what the enemy of civilization wants us to do, desacrilize (is that a word?) life.
Make no mistake, this is what this is about. Life. Is it sacred, or not? Shall it be protected, or not?
“Instead of letting her die by starvation, for example, it would be very easy to give her something that would painlessly let her die.”
Alden, now isn’t this just as predictable as clockwork?
Just today Rush stated that this is the spin the pro-death crowd would try to put on this incident, in an attempt to mainstream the idea of “compassionate euthanasia”.
It makes me ill…
I loved my grandfather very much, but massive strokes killed whatever was truely him. I prayed for him to die. Thank goodness it was relatively quick.
She may not be aware of what is happening, but Terri as she was I do not believe would want to live like this or certainly not have the world see her this way.
I am drawing up a conditional DNR, a living will and a durable power of attorney. I WOULD NOT WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY!!! If I am in a PVS or in the latter stages of Alzheimer’s then I want to go as fast as possible. No damned feeding tubes. No medical treatment.
I would also appreciate if a well-meaning legion of hob goblins would mind their own business and not force me to live when I would want it ended. It is MY decision.
I feel for Michael her husband. I think he stayed married to her so he could protect HER wishes. I feel for her parents too. I just don’t agree with them.
I’m sorry if I hurt some feelings here, but anyone who thinks Michael Schiavo had honorable intentions of “honoring” Terri’s wishes is just plain guilible. There are tons of affidavits that speak otherwise of him, not to mention, questions of what caused her collapse in the first place. As the parent of a profoundly handicapped 21 year old, I know what it’s like to care for a severely disabled person. My “child” is the joy of my life and it terrifies me to think a doctor could say that her life is not worth living and starve her to death after my husband and I are gone and can no longer protect her. THIS IS WHERE THIS IS HEADED, FOLKS!!!! A less able life does not equal a death sentence in a cruel and inhumane fashion. God gets to decide who is here to teach us lessons in life, and my daughter has touched many lives, and God decides when to call us home to his mercy.
“I don’t know his true motives”
Exactly, none of do except those within the families. How can we possibly pass judgement on either Michael Schiavo or her parents? None of us outside the families can know what her wishes were. I’m not defending Michael Schiavo, I’m just saying that all this attention and focus on this case is just so many people yammering about a situation about which they cannot possibly know all of the facts.
…It is because he has conclusively shown that this is what Terri would have wanted too….
So, staying married to her and shacking up with another woman and having two kids by her….That’s what Terri would have wanted?
Why has he not divorced Terri????
I know a lot of people don’t want to live that way. I don’t want to live like that, or like a inmate, or like anyone in a mental institution, or like anyone in a third world country, or like the women in the MiddleEast live. But I do prefer all those options if the alternative is not being alive at all.
My grandfather had Alzheimer’s for ten years. His physical health went downhill little by little. He eventually died of pneumonia (sp?). He told the doctor once he was useless as an old dog and you could see the frustration when he couldn’t articulate his thoughts most of the time. But I’ll never forget how happy he was when we all went over to grandma’s and grandpa’s house to sing Christmas carols or the day at Sunday dinner when he was eating his birthday cake unaware, and we were singing “happy birthday” and he looked up in amazement and joy when we got to “…dear Grandpa…”. Geez I’m crying. My grandma misses him so much. He went from strong, could-fix-anything, funny…to almost silent, and gaunt and… okay I gotta stop now.
I don’t know who’s right but quality of life is such a stupid phrase. Your life may not be what you pictured, but that hardly makes death preferable. It’ll come anyway.
I would rather be DEAD than live life in a vegitative state. It is not your decision, it is not the government’s decision. It IS MINE and mine alone. I plan to stipulate it in writing and in video.
Don’t worry. My wanting to have a right to die is not going to impede on anybody’s right to for instance keep a suffering Tay Sachs child alive for years past when nature would have let the poor little soul go mercifully. That is up to the parents no matter how misguided it might be. Go see the websites of these half-dead children. The cruelty of prolonged suffering makes me so angry, but is as it should be. It is a PRIVATE family decision.
God! People act like someone’s decision for no invening medical care will snatch their disabled child from their arms.
I surely don’t know what Terri really wanted, but I have gone and looked at pictures that she would have wanted to be remembered by and read about her life. She hated to be the center of attention. She’d hate this. Terri really died 15 years ago. What is left is empty space filled with cerebral-spinal fluid and brain stem reflexive actions.
My first instinct is to think her parents are selfish wanting to keep her body around. It’s hard for me to understand because my daughter pleaded with me not to ever make her live that way.
This is so important to me because I don’t want what has happened to Terri for the last 15 years to happen to me.
Like I did for my grandfather; I pray for her to go quickly to God.
Another argument againt late term abortion.
I mean VERY late… how is this morally different?
That’s pretty much it Frank.
Thanks.
Morphine me Dammit! I have been discussing this with my husband for the past several days… This is for all intent and purpose – murder. This man has obviously moved on with the rest of his life (he has a common law wife & children, do not tell me he has Terri’s best intrest at heart… Dammit people, I was raised Catholic which will turn any sensible person atheist by the time they are 14, just for dragging their spirit down) by the fact that God can be a right bastard to women and children by the catholic way of thinking, but, (takes break to curse fluently the name of theratassedbastardthatcallshimseftthehusbandofterri-(&)((^%&%*&$!) This Is Wrong! That sorry effing jerk-wad should recind his rights and get on with the rest of his life, do not tell me he gives a rats rosie rump about Terri. He gave that up about 10 years ago when he started producing offspring with another woman. (and took out a life insurance policy on Terri…)(takes long breath & gives fingers a break from keyboard)….
So, why do we want to feed the world? I mean, gosh, so like, more humane to let them starve to death & stuff right?
(must find hippie to strangle…. now!)
oops, have i not mentioned, hiss, growl?
Look, I believe this life is not the end, I or we all have another to learn more… Shit, guess I am just funky that way, but you get back some of the evil or good you put into the previous incarnation.
I realize I may have tons to get back from this go round, or that the bad I get now was from previous wrongs from what I have lived before (oh, yeah big F.U. to all you that post nastiness, blah, blah, blah, whatever… thingy, Hey, Jesus is coming back, didn’t say nuthin’ bout me! Nyah!) (okay, so sorry that’s just rude…) But, my own sense about this, Terri Schiavo’s husband is going to be the Devil’s own BITCH! (and if from my catholic perspective i earn another eternity in purgetory for that comment.. mmmhmm, it will be well f***ing worth it!!) Hey, If I get the opportunity to bitch slap that mo’fu, then like yeah for shure, like… uh…
yep, I’m a rude girl…, Bad me, what-ever….
Look, (I am a donator of body parts) Chop me, Slice & Dice me, then give the remains a glorious Viking funeral. Drink at my wake, remember my usfull moments, but do not starve & dehydrate my ass to death honestly…) try it, see if you are comfortable…
Are you?
I don’t know if Michael Schiavo is a bastard, but according to Webster’s his children are bastards.
Michael’s rank hypocrisy is evident. He was happy to keep his wife alive for eight years while he stood to gain money from a malpractice lawsuit. Now she is in the way. This has been about money-grubbing from the get go.
I don’t see why our President and/or Gov. Bush don’t march onto the hospice and place this woman under protective custody. The hell with these judges. They have no standing against the administrative branch of government. Let the judge issue as many rulings and decrees as he wants and let the liberals howl…the woman would be safe and she could live…sigh…but alas the Bush’s don’t have the stones…Girlymen both I fear…
Well put. The most important question that I can ask is: “Since when do the wishes of a spouse trump the wishes of flesh-and-blood relatives?” Especially in cases where the motives of the spouse might be even remotely in question (in contrast to an obviously devoted family which has nothing to gain except a loved one’s life)? Why deny a family the right to care for its own, with their own time, money, and resources?
I would never argue that Terri Schindler-Schiavo (or anyone like her) is going to “snap out of it” one day, but that’s not a matter for a government entity to decide.
My greatest fear is that we’re not going to learn any lessons about this for the future. Just one made-for-TV drama after another.
this is one of the worst stories in my lifetime….where are we going. this man is a monster. if he loves terri as much as he claims how can he be so cruel to her family. at times he hasn’t allowed her mother to visit her. there are 2 videos i wish someone would play continually side by side for judge greer. the 1st video of her mother propping her pillow, kissing her face and terri looking sort of releaved almost to see her mom. the next video is terri looking nervous and tense and her eyes kind of darting back and forth trying not to look at her “loving” husband but almost afraid not too. to me those images are all i need to convince me this man should not have any say in terris life. i don’t know what her true condition is i’m not a doctor but it seems so obvious who cares about her and who doesn’t.
Just think for a moment of this stunning lack of logic coming from the pro-death camp:
Premise: Terri is in a PVS.
Statements:
1) It is cruel to keep her alive.
2) It is NOT cruel to put her to death.
Yeesh. If the woman is a vegetable, then how the hell is it cruel to keep her alive? The very botiont hat there is cruelty invovled, contradicts the PVS argument.
The truth is – a)nobody knows what state Terri is really in, and b)nobody knows what she would have wanted if in this state.
Absent of that knowledge, we must come down on the side of life.
The owman has not received medical treatment for many years. She has not been tested as thoroughly as she should be. And we know a number of cases where doctors who testified PVS or similar were dead wrong! Put that together with the fact that there is no strong evidence suggesting Terri would have wanted to die in this situation, along with the conflict of a soiuse/guardian who has since taken another woman and had 2 kids with her, and it is mindboggling how this one judge can come to the conclusion that there is “clear and convincing” evidence of the key arguments in this case.
I’m all for giving lethal injections to people who would want to die in this situation, but given how little we really know about her state and her wishes, it is EVIL to put her to death.
Regardless of the details in this confusing case, I am repulsed because the Courts unanimously decide to put a woman out of her misery, and opt for a process that would rival the most deplorably inhumane methods of slow torture…
….all because termination by injection would not have been legal??
I completely agree.
Frank. Your writing is great. These other dudes, aren’t good. In fact they are as annoying as hell. What is so wrong about having a site that is just all Frank J with none of the other bullshit hacks?
Lose the Monkey, the Duck, Harvey and Sarah. Dump them all. You don’t need them. It’s all you Frank. Don’t let them drag you down.
“if she is in a PVS, then it matters not to her if she’s still living and thus giving comfort to her parents. If she isn’t, then it’s murder to kill her. ”
You pinned it down right there, Frank.
Wathching her starve is certainly an evil to her parents. To Terri I don’t think it matters. As a societal thing, I believe we took the wrong path. An overdose of morphine would have been kinder. I wouldn’t let starvation happen to my dog or cat. I certainly can’t condone it with a human being. I don’t even know what is the right answer anymore. I still believe the person that was Terri would not have wanted this circus and this fixation on her in her debilitated state. I personally would have never has the feeding tube inserted in the first place. This outright killing of her and death watch is horrid. I am confused.
This is just a ghoulish Easter.
Thanks Frank and all you commenters,
I was pretty upset reading some of the rationalizations going around about killing Terri. I felt like “are you blind? Don’t you know where this road leads to?” But hearing from you guys, and seeing that other people can think this one through. I still feel horror. But I see that it isn’t going to be so simple for the euthanasia freaks to get their way with their program.
I hope that Gov. Bush puts a stop to it. But I honestly don’t know what will happen to her.
Ah well.
-ron
What did Terri want? Even if she said, “no life support”, until now that meant, “if im in a coma, dont put me on a ventilator”. No one expects to go into a state of PVS. Terri is not constantly unconscious, like people in a coma. PVS is not a coma, at least as far as it goes w/ Terri. Its one thing to ask that you not be put on life support, and you can die unconsciously. Its another thing to die while conscious, no matter what mental state you are in. Most people know why they have to starve Terri. Its illegal to kill, by helping them along with medicine, but fine if you let them take the long route and suffer, only because the law was never intended to help people kill, especially people in semi-conscious states. As far as Michael is concerned, I dont like him at all. Some say hes staying married to fulfill his wifes wishes, but it could be so that he gets the insurance money only if he is married to her when she dies. He refuses to let her parents see her some of the time, and refused treatment for her. He may be extremely afraid of her being able to talk, for whatever reason, and it seems from some of the testimony that she is very close to being able to talk.
God, please take her quickly so that her suffering and the suffering of those who love her may end.
And while you’re at it, please quickly take her supposed ‘husband’ as well so that his suffering may begin and last throughout eternity.
Thank you.
I appreciate you posting a serious, thoughtful post on Terri Schiavo. Too many other blogs that should be on the right side of this have gotten themselves all twisten in legalisitc arguments and dismissed the moral dimension of this.
This shouldn’t be a diffcult decision. Terri Schiavo is not brain dead, she is not on extreme life support and until her feeding tube was removed she did not have a terminal condition. Her parents want to keep her alive and try to provide her a chance to regain some functions even if the chance of success may be small. As a father I am horrified at the idea that a judge can tell parents that their child must die.
All of us will die eventually. Why this rush to kill her? According to the people who want to see her dead, she cannot feel anything good or bad. If she was suffering before the barbarians started starving her, suffering is an inevitable part of human life and anyone that is able to suffer also has the capability to cherish life.
What the proponents of starving seem to lack is the willingness to admit that there are many things we do not know. It is easy to say when you are healthy that you wouldn’t want to live like this. But how can you know what it is like to be in her condition? Arrogant doctors make claims about her. Doctors have often been wrong and even if the experts are right in this case, how can we not defer to her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler who are devoted to given her every chance?
Unfortunately, it does seem certain now that this will end tragically. I just hope her poor parents and siblings make it through this horrible tragedy. They have suffered a terrible injustice. We all need to think about how we can prevent the legal machine of judges and lawyers from doing this to anyone else.
I kept reading that she wouldn’t be in any pain and all that “peaceful death” garbage. So why did they put her on morphine this weekend?
Lord, look down upon on those who would take life before it’s due, and enlighten them to the sanctity of your gift.
Hey, it’s just MY prayer….
“I kept reading that she wouldn’t be in any pain and all that “peaceful death” garbage. So why did they put her on morphine this weekend?”
They did put her on Morphine? Good for them, at least they arent explicitly denying that there is any possibility that she stil has some functionality. To be blunt, when you are executing someone, its always nice to be sure they are on pain medication.
Sorry, but comparing this situation to that of a loved one who refused food or water as a result of falling ill is simply not applicable.
People who are ill and/or dying will refuse food because their bodies and internal organs are shutting down.
Terri Schiavo was not dying before the feeding tube was removed.
The part that wants to live is stronger. If you’re in the ‘let me go’ camp write a living will.
I think it is a left/right thing Frank. Or it has become one. The lefties hate God. They think they are their own god and this case gives them a perverse sense of victory over the faithful.
God fearing folks prefer to err on the side of life, like good ronin.
Good job Frank.
I will grant you that this is a very thought provoking situation. I have a couple things to say.
1. I have seen multiple people point out that since Terry is brain damaged to the point she doesn’t know what is happening to her, or how miserable she should be in this condition, we should make her live on for the parents. This is no different then saying she should be forced to die because she doesn’t know. What she knows now is irrelevant, it was what she wanted while still of sound mind that matters.
2. While nobody yet, on anything I have read, has said that they would prefer to live like Terri is rather than die, I keep hearing the phrase “Who are we to decide if she lives or dies?” or “Who is Michael Shiavo to decide if she dies?”. I can answer that.
“We” are nobody. Our opinions do not count in the least nor should they. We should not decide and we are not deciding.
“He” is her husband. Period. This means that Terri, while still of sound mind and decision making ability chose to marry this man. By doing so, she chose him to represent her interests if something like this ever happened. She may not have filled out a living will, but by signing the dotted line and saying “I do” she put her complete trust in him to do what she wanted in this situation. You can second guess her now, but it means nothing. The sanctity of marriage was a huge topic when it might be to fellas getting hitched, but now it apparently does not matter.
And no, he did not give up his rights as her husband by having a relationship or children with another woman. If you think that should be the case, call your congressman, but at this time it is not true.
3. Having the feeding tube removed is remarkably cruel. It is too bad our government has not had the insight to provide a legal way for the terminally ill or life support cases like this to be assisted in passing rather than hindered.
4. In regard to those people that died to preserve our democracy, to which it was replied that they died voluntarily while Terri is not I say this. One and perhaps both of those assertions are wrong.
Not everyone that has ever died fighting for this country was happy to do it. There was this thing called the draft. And sometimes if you got in trouble with the law they would force you into service. Getting drafted and then blown up in WWII is not voluntarily sacrificing your life for your country. That is your COUNTRY deciding that it is warranted to sacrifice YOUR life for the cause.
So to the question “should Terri die just to preserve the principals of checks and balances” I would say that we have chosen thousands of others to die for those same principles and they were not in a vegetative state at the time.
5. Finally, based on every conversation I have ever had with friend, family or stranger on what conditions we would want to live with and when we would rather die, it has been unanimous that no one would want to live as Terri has these last years. While all we have to go on is the husband SHE chose to make this decision for her, I personally feel pretty damn sure that if you had asked that 25 year old woman before this happened, she would have said she would rather die than live for years or decades in the state she is in. Can’t prove it, but I consider it a safe bet.
So you may ask yourself, is Michael wronging her now by insisting this happen? Or did he wrong her 12 years ago by not insisting on it then? If he violated her wishes and kept her around to win a lawsuit, does that mean her wishes should not be fulfilled now.
You can say we do not know her wishes for certain, and that is true. But I am pretty sure I know.
Against my lawyer’s advice, I felt the need to respond to the remarks on this website. I strongly resent all the “starved to death” references on this board.
As my attorney said, Terri looks “beautiful and peaceful”. I would go farther. In fact, I would say she looks like a million bucks (maybe more).
Patients are put on morphine when feeding tubes are removed as a part of standard procedure. Now the parents are complaining that a doctor might give her an overdose. Unbelievable.
I am religious and conservative/libertarian. To say simply that this is a religious/god hating; right/left argument is absurd. Calling her merely “disabled” is equally absurd. Her cerebral cortex is gone by all accounts. She is left a shell of nothing but brainstem reflexive actions with a sleep/wake cycle. I also beleived for a minute that my grandfather’s stroke riddled brain could produce thought. Then I realized that it was just wishful thinking. To love him would be to honor his written wishes. So his feeding tube, anibiotics and insulin were stopped. Happens all the time folks. This ain’t nothin’ knew except for the whole freakin’ country getting involved.
No, I do not think the courts should have stepped in. She had no living will so there she should have unfortunately laid in a vegatative state for years. I call it cruel, but who really knows what she wanted. I’ll bet her parents would have fought whether or not she had a living will.
Look what they have done to her. They have desecrated her memory and turned what should have been a private family matter into a circus.
Fine. If people believe that it is God’s will to live like that, they are welcome to it. I suppose it is also God’s will that little girls are raped and murdered and human intervention has naught to do with it. Whatever. I’m really sick of people laying evil at the feet of God saying her intervenes here, but not over there. I suppose we should let people die without cancer drugs, because it’s “God’s will.”
Michael Schiavo might be a rat and he might not. Those of you who are saying that flesh and blood hold precedence are forgetting what the scripture says of marriage. By law both religious and legalistic, the spouse is first.
I have a picture of Terri in my mind as she was before. I’m sure that’s how she would have liked to have been remembered.
I know a lot of people don’t want to live that way. I don’t want to live like that, or like a inmate, or like anyone in a mental institution, or like anyone in a third world country, or like the women in the MiddleEast live. But I do prefer all those options if the alternative is not being alive at all.
Smartest comment I’ve seen in this thread.
So, since we wouldn’t want to live like such people–and don’t forget the ugly, the poor, the obese, the stupid, etc., etc., etc., why are their lives worth anything?
Why don’t we just get rid of all of them too?
Offended by the idea? Why aren’t you offended by the idea of offing the disabled, then?
NOTHING pisses me off like hearing “I wouldn’t want to live like that.” It’s an easy thing to say from the perspective of good health. There’s a good article about the bigotry toward the disabled from a guy with cerebral palsy here.
Thanks, Frank, for putting in your two cents on the issue, especially since you did it looking at the (in)humanity of it, rather than the phony, pointy-headed legal arguments.
I’ve done more than just spout off that “I wouldn’t want to live that way.” It’s in my freaking will.
Where have at anytime have I talked about killing the disabled? This is about ME and ME alone. What you do with yourself is your business (unless the government and the extremist group of the month wishes to tell you what’s right for you).
Hey Frank,
Babies can’t feed themselves, right? They should be starved.
People with severe cerebal palsy can’t feed themselves, right? They should be starved and they really don’t want to live that way.
Oh quadrapeligics can’t feed themselves, so I guess it’s okay to withold food from them too. We’re just restricting them from a great experience.
You know, I’m bored of my plants, I guess I’ll go starve them too. I’l just wait until they wither away.
“I kept reading that she wouldn’t be in any pain and all that “peaceful death” garbage. So why did they put her on morphine this weekend?”
Morphine slows down rapid breathing associated with dehydration and controls muscle spasms when patients are near death. It doesn’t necesarily have to be used as a pain reliever in this instance.
I only respond to this becuase it is an example of how everyone seems to be missing the facts of the situation, whether on purpose or as innocent mistakes. IMO, the most pertinent question should be: is Michael Schiavo’s statement that Terri would want to deny intrusive medical treatment credible and has the due process of law been honored?