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Sarah and I are really thrown for a loop, guys; this is my most desperate bleg ever as we really need some good advice.
As told before, we adopted the three-year-old, sixty pound, supposedly part Shepherd Rowdi (then Brownie) from PetSmart on a day when the local shelter had a booth and a bunch of dogs and cats out. Rowdi was so sweet and we felt so bad that her owners just gave her up that it didn’t take long to convince ourselves to adopt her instead of waiting to get a puppy. It seemed she would get along fine with our cats because she didn’t show the cats there any aggression. At one point, they had a blanket cover a cage full of kittens, and Rowdi kept sniffing the cage curiously as the kittens kept swatting her through the blanket (the kittens finally pulled down the blanket and were like “Oh @#$%!” when they saw what they were swatting at.
Well, the cats didn’t take to her right away, of course, and we’ve gotten a baby gate to keep her in the kitchen (though we let her watch TV with us on a leash) and have a huge metal dog crate to keep her in at night and when both of us are gone. It seemed that, gradually, they would get along.
Then we realized she’s a pit bull. It seems so obvious to everyone who has seen pictures of her, we wonder why the shelter people didn’t mention it. Actually, when she went to the vet yesterday, the doctor didn’t see any Shepherd in her. We’d be like “Whatever” except that we’ve seen all these stories about pit bulls that are like:
We had a pit bull for four years and she was the sweetest dog. She’d never showed any aggression, would rescue cats from trees, and even carefully captured spiders and released them alive outside. Then, one day, we left her home alone for an hour, and, when we returned, we found she had killed every single living thing in the neighborhood, sold all our stocks and bonds and spent the money on crack, and swallowed all our left socks. When we found her, she was just panting and smiling in the background of an Osama bin Laden video like nothing had happened.
So, even if Rowdi shows no aggression for a year, we’re worried she could just snap for no reason. In addition, we’re not sure she’s non-aggressive. She seems fine with other dogs and only barks at dogs who are her size or larger (and probably also female — Rowdi is spayed, BTW). Every once in a while, she gets excited and has what Sarah calls “crazy eyes” and will jump on us and play bite (light touches with the teeth but bites nonetheless). Since she’s sixty pounds of pure muscle, this is a bit of a problem until we learn what to do to calm her down (the obedience class mentioned grounding her by pulling her down by her collar and pushing down between her shoulder blades, but she’s too strong for that and just whimpers at me when I try).
Finally, she seems to be getting frustrated at the cats and has now a number of times growled and barked at them. The cats (especially Minerva, the older one and the one most displeased by changes in the status quo) have gotten quite brazen with knowing she’s restrained when were around and will get closer and closer to her without letting Rowdi close enough to sniff her. Minerva won’t run from Rowdi, and has only jumped back a foot once Rowdi darted at her and plunged her nose into Minerva’s side (does that count as aggression?). Minerva is constantly going into the kitchen (usually sticking to the counters) but never letting Rowdi all the way up to her. While Rowdi still usually just watches the cats quietly until she gets bored, we’re more worried that frustration will make her angry at the cats. None of the articles on introducing a dog to cats mention anything about the dog getting frustrated at constantly seeing these creatures she can’t get near, and it’s worrisome. In all indications, she’s just curious and wants to sniff them (as long as they don’t run and get her to instinctively chase them), but how can we be sure? I grew up with a German Shepherd named Lady who never successfully killed a fly (she tried once, but I later found the fly walking along the ground, covered in slobber), so I feel I might be a bit naive to the fact that some dogs kill.
So what now? We get increasingly worried every time Minerva ventures close to the kitchen when we’re not in there, and, even if the cats warm up to Rowdi and she seems fine with them, how can we be sure she won’t ever harm them. And what about when we one day have kids? Can we ever trust Rowdi around them?
We’re really stressed on this one. Rowdi is a very sweet dog who is quite calm for most of the day. She also has the saddest eyes in the morning when she realizes I’m leaving, and the happiest expression when I take her out to play. She’s very smart and is picking up commands and obedience quite quickly. We really want this to work, but we need some assurances. Is there any experts to talk to (does someone know the Dog Whisperer?)? This is going to be dominating a lot of our life until we feel this is resolved. Again, we will really appreciate any help on this.
Thanks.
UPDATE: It should be mentioned that we live on a golf course and can’t fence our yard. The plan was (and is) to walk her many times a day.
UPDATE 2: Sarah took Rowdi out for a walk this afternoon and ran into some people delivering furniture to a nearby house. They commented on what a nice looking dog she is and one said, “She looks just like Brownie.” Of course, Brownie was Rowdi’s former name. Ends up, the guy knew Rowdi and the former owner and kept going on about what a sweet dog she is and how he was glad she found a new home. She was owned by a fourteen-year-old along with another pit, and the problem was the neighbors complaining about her barking (she seldom barks and the volume is nothing compared to the German Shepherd I used to have). Since we prayed hard about Rowdi and our worries last night, we crazy Christians are probably going to read too much into this chance encounter, but it certainly is making us feel better. We’ll continue to proceed with caution, but we think we can make this work.
Having seen the damage first hand that a pit bull who was “never a problem” and “so sweet” did to my 10 year old neighbor who was riding her bike down the street, I’m sorry but I advise against it. I’ve posted about it here: http://www.pirate-king.com/episode/959
It comes down to the fact that when a species of dog, maybe representing a few percent of the canine population, is responsible for 67% of deaths caused by dogs. This is from the CDC.
Do everyone a favor, and consider the possibilities. Sure, not every pit bull will maul someone.
But not every Pinto burst into flames when it was rear ended. It’s still not a good idea to go to the demolition derby in one…
Is it time to make the dog an outside dog? In a fenced in backyard, with locked gates.
Take what the CDC had to say with a grain of salt. It’s one of those organizations that counts 17-25 y/o as “children” when calculating gun deaths.
Frank and Sarah,
As much as I hate to say it, you may have gotten yourselves into a bind. Without getting a chance to observe her parents, you’ll have a hard time judging her overall demeanor at full maturity. By the same token, the kind of environment YOU build goes a long way depending on the genes and the previous owners’ upbringing. Think of trying to “reprogram” a person whose parents had violence or addiction issues, and was beaten from a young age. Not impossible, arguably very admirably, but undoubtedly frought with issues, frustration, and maybe even tragedy. I would say find a vet who can assess her tendencies. there are even pet “behavioralists,” I guess kinda like a dog shrink that can gice you some insight. Finally make an informed decision on your future with Rowdi. You must put aside emotion, as much as you can, when you evaluate your situation, your future (children), and what’s is best for the dog as well. As an aside I would say that a dog with as much size and energy as a pitbull probably should spend most of the day outside to get the required exercise, and lessen the amount of playful damage inside. Not saying she shouldn;t be inside, but she will need a lot of exercise based on size, energy, and breed characteristics.
Best of Luck
I’ve known a lot of people who’ve had pitbulls. They’re usually very well behaved dogs that will never have a problem with anyone. I don’t have a pitbull but I do have a dog. The problem is the perception from pitbulls more than anything.
Normal dogs of just about every breed can snap and attack kids/owners/etc, but the problem with pitbulls is that they are so strong, fast, and agile they are deadly when they do. Any other type of dog may snap, but you’ll get away with a few stitches in your arm, while a pitbull will rip apart your neck b/c of their strength, speed, instincts, etc. It’s kind of like asking, is it more likely a German Shepard or a Maltese can snap and kill you? Which would you be more scared of?
Now, the question is, from this small minority do you want to get rid of the dog b/c of the perception. To some people it’s too big of a risk which is perfectly understandable. To some, it’s no more of a risk than driving your car down the road.
As for the cats, is getting rid of them an option? Sorry, not much of a cat person, but if I absolutely had to have a dog get along with a cat, and I wasn’t allowed to shoot the cat and give it to the dog as a chew toy…well, I’d basically make them interact in a controlled environment as often as possible. You can’t allow the cats to constantly tease the dog as it will learn to resent them and eventually want to kill them. At the same time, you can’t just let them all run wild at the same time, unless you have a small puppy, b/c of the inherent damage a chase may cause.
Here is a link to some Pit Bull myths and their explanations: http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html
This video is really sad and somewhat graphic, but you might want to watch it anyway: http://www.pitbullproblem.tk/
While I’ve never owned a pit bull, from my experience owning a German Shepherd, I’ve concluded that when left to their own devises, dogs will revert to their genetic types. German Shepherds were bred in the 19th century to guard flocks from predators when the flocks were grazing up in the mountains. My German Shepherd has no herding or guard training whatsoever. But when I’m not actively telling her what to do, she will take it upon herself to herd people and other dogs and to protect anything she has decided is hers. For instance, at the dog park, she runs in circles around the park, trying to get all the dogs and people together in one nice compact group which she can keep an eye on. She has also appointed herself the guardian of my house and yard with the duty to patrol the fenceline at regular intervals. Pit bulls were originally bred to fight and kill other dogs. I would be concerned that a pit bull, left to its own devises without supervision, would revert to this genetic type. Of course, most pit bulls never hurt anyone, and I may be over-generalizing dog behavior based on the behavior of just one dog. So my thoughts could be complete garbage.
Funny you should mention this. I used to have a Pitbull puppie named Brownie. I kicked her and beat her and taught her to mangle little dolls. The neighbor narced on me when she attacked her children and chased them around the tree.
Anyway, I had to ship the dog to some bum town in Florida. I’m sure she’s fine and she’s found a good home.
I’m sure it couldn’t be the same dog.
P.S. I think you’re fine as long as you don’t have children. Pit bulls always attack things at eye level like kids and cats.
P.P.S. You can always get new cats.
Alexandra is somewhat right in that pit bulls will sometimes revert to what they were bred to do. Pit bulls tend to be aggressive towards other dogs, not people in general. Of course, that doesn’t mean all pit bulls dislike other dogs. It’s all in how they are raised.
Frank and Sarah
II think Update 2 is a great sign. I still think you need to find a way to let her really cut loose with some exercise. Understand the fence restriction. Have you considered an “invisible fence” (buried electric)?
I’ve never used on because all of my homes have been fenced, but I know folks who have been real pleased with thier effectiveness.
Good luck
Have her temperment tested. And now that I know she’s a pit – use that choke chain. Pits are BRED for ungodly-thick necks and chests – a regular leash, or a chain that’s not used properly, is just “Oh, I feel like doing what your faint, fly-speck pressure on my neck indicates you want me to do”.
Spend the money, ususually about $75 or so, to take Rowdi through obedience school. Having any dog, but especially a large, strong dog, trained to instantly obey commands makes living with these dogs so much easier and safer.
I had 4 miniature long-haired Dachshunds. Doxies were originally bred to hunt badgers and they have no fear in their little bodies. All four of mine where little bundles of love, until one day they formed a “PACK” and attacked the cat. Fortunately, I was home, heard the commotion and was able to rescue the cat just seconds before they killed her. It scared me to death, but it was the only incident like that ever. The cat never entered the room again on the floor. If the dogs were in the room, she managed to walk from one end to the other by leaping from high spot to high spot. Your cats will figure out how to stay safe.
BTW, when I was a teenager, we visited some old family friends in another state. We had our dog with us. They had two Siamese cats. These cats were not happy to have their home invaded and formed a sentry patrol. They sat on the counters on either side of the kitchen door and when my dog came through, they lept down in tandem and nearly took her eyes out.
Cats and dogs find their own comfort zones with each other, each establishing dominance in its own way.
Animal shelters, while doing a great job on the whole can really muck it up from time to time. I had a similar experience where a local shelter was closing and we wanted a dog. Since they were closing, any of the remaining animals that were not placed would be destroyed. We fell in love with a particular dog, then one of the workers convinced my wife to adopt a second dog. This one was a collie mix. Now I’ve owned dogs my whole life, but never a collie. What do most folks think of when you see a collie? Yes, good old Lassie, gentle Lassie. We got the two dogs home and the collie proceeded to try to kill the other dog (nearly did). My vet, while treating this dog, went into a tirade about how the shelter should have known better, that collies are best in single dog homes – very territorial. Needless to say after incurring a very expensive surgical bill on the other dog, the shelter got the other one back. Bottom line is, if they didn’t tell you this dog had a pit-bull in his woodpile, and you are not comfortable with pit-bulls, the shelter/pet store that told you it was a Shep mix would be getting the dog back.
Pitbull terriers are usually very friendly dogs, but there are always risks when it comes to animals that are still being bred today to be extremely aggressive for fighting. In NM, there has been legislation to ban the dogs from being brought into and/or being bred in the state, because there have been numerous attacks. Pitbulls tend to be particularly vicious in a confrontation and likely won’t respond to commands when told to stop.
If you don’t have any background on the dog’s parentage, or if you don’t know how well it was treated before you adopted, you have even more uncertainty about how it will act & react as it gets older, so you really ought to weigh in the risk/benefit & liability factors if, God forbid, something bad does happen with the dog.
Some good points by Alexandra, Tim and Bill. The temperament and behavior of any dog are largely determined by ancestry, her environment during puppyhood (especially socialization) and training. Unfortunately, you have very little insight into any of these factors. THe suggestion to make her an “outside dog” is not only wrong, but dangerous. Dogs are pack animals, and become psychotic if deprived of companionship.
You really, really need to work with a good trainer or behaviorist, both to evaluate Rowdi and to reenforce behaviors that will make her a safe companion.
Check the website of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers ( http://www.apdt.com ) to find a good trainer in your area. Look for someone who holds a CPDT (Certified Pet Dog Trainer) qualification, indicating that they are up to speed on current, reward based training methods. If there is a vet school nearby, you may be able to find a behaviorist there. Interview prospective trainers and watch them work with dogs before hiring anyone. Run screaming from anyone who starts talking about shock collars, “breaking” a dog, showing the dog who is boss or using physical force (hitting, pinching, alpha roll). If you hear terms like “clicker training” or “operant conditioning” you’re on the right track.
Some books you should read (available at http://www.dogwise.com):
Successful Dog Adoption by Sue Sternberg.
I’ve known Sue as a musician (fantastic fiddle player) but in her day job she leads the ASPCA efforts on adoption and rescue, and travels around the country training shelter staff. This book is essential for anyone considering adopting a rescue dog.
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Donaldson is (or was) the ASPCA’s lead person for behavior and training. Culture Clash clearly and thoroughly explains dog behavior and modern, scientifically based training techniques. It’s the best book I’ve found that helps me understand why a dog reacts to people and other dogs in certain ways, and how to build a good relationship with your dog. She has several other books dealing with problem behaviors (Mine! and Dogs are from Neptune are two that I’ve read).
Bones Would Rain from the Sky (If a Dog’s Prayers Were Answered) by Suzanne Clothier
Less of a “how to” with a strong emphasis on building trust between dog and handler. One of my personal favorites (and not just among dog books).
One important thing to do to help the cats: block off part of the house with a dog gate to give the cats a safe haven. They can jump over the gate (we have a sturdy metal one from PetEdge.com) and find their food, litter box, etc. without having to worry about the dog. We have a GoldenDoodle and (very relaxed) cat, and they get along well.
Unfortunately, you’re learning why adopting on impulse is usually a bad idea. Staffies (Staffordshire Terriers aka Pit Bulls) can be great companions, but they have a very strong prey drive and enormously strong jaws. This makes them less than ideal choices for households with cats, and requires extreme caution with small children. Our dog plays regularly with a Pit from our neighborhood, but the Pit’s owner is always right there, monitoring the situation and intervening if it looks like instinct is kicking in. Rowdi may very well turn out to be an ideal pet, but you will have to put a lot of time and attention into making sure of that.
Good luck!
From the pictures, that is DEFINITELY part Shephard and no more than 1/2 Staffordshire at most.
Dog training is important — for ALL breeds.
Getting the dog to like the cats can be an adventure — for ALL breeds. Seriously, where do you think the stereotype of cats and dogs fighting each other comes from?
You need to let the dog know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that the cats are your babies. Hold the cats, pet the cats, talk to the cats, with the dog in the room and able to see you.
Then, hand over the cats to your spouse, and lavish attention on the dog, so the cats can see.
Then both of you trade roles and repeat this process.
Do this daily.
If the dog growls or bites at the cats, step in between, cradle the cat, and make it VERY CLEAR to the dog that this is bad behavior. Be firm, but not mean.
And, same goes if the cats get uppity and swipe their claws at the dog. Peace is a two-way street.
And forget all the hype you hear about “pit bulls.”
For one thing, anyone who says “pit bull” is being an ignorant boob. The breed is the Staffordshire Terrier. Calling one a “pit bull” is like calling a semi-automatic rifle an “assault weapon” or a compact pistol a “saturday night special.”
Never use the phrase “pit bull” again!
For another thing: 99% of all Staffordshires are calm, peaceful, loving, gentle dogs. Some are violent. So what? Some chihuahuas are prone to bite. The problem is how they are raised and trained (or not trained). Staffordshires only get a bad rap because they happen to have strong jaws and big teeth, so when they bite, they are likely to cause more injury. Plus, it sounds more manly to go to the doctor because you were “mauled by a pit bull” than because you were “nibbled on by a terrier.” Thus, people are far more likely to make a big deal about an incident with a Staffordshire than other breeds — who wants to admit he got his clock cleaned by a DOG? So of course there is a disproportionate reporting of injuries caused by this breed!
Training is THE MOST important thing. Start with training. Then see how the dog responds.
The fact that there are so many adamant apologists in favor of “Staffordshires” tells you something in and of itself.
Return the dog before it’s too late, get a smaller breed (sporting group, not terrier – they are generally more friendly with other animals and children), and start with a puppy.
If you do decide to keep her, do not tolerate any “play” biting. Squirt her with a little spray bottle of water any time she does that.
I would be more concerned about future children than with anything else. Getting a full grown dog will always be risky as you have no idea how the dog was raised, have they been around small children, etc..Maybe you could find a puppy at the pound?
I have to agree with Andrew, from a couple above, don’t put up with any “play” biting
She needs to know what is acceptable and what is not. If you don’t let her know that any particular behavior is intolerable she will continue doing it and it could get worse.
Frank:
Underground fence is the ticket – operates with a radio signal, works like a charm on biggest dogs.
Read No Bad Dogs, too busy to look up author, but it is last word on training. Establishing dominance is the key. Good Luck!
My roomate has pit bull sheperd mix (Dozer) and he looks exactly like Rowdie. He hit 1 year old this month and has proven to be quite smart, learns quickly and will stop on a dime when told ‘NO’ about 4/5 of the time. He does have increadible jaw pressure, but has never used it on anything living (including his sister whom he plays with quite roughly when she comes to visit). At times Dozer will get riled up and start playfully nipping, but a sharp ‘NO’ or ‘EH’ will stop him and let him know that I’m not in the mood to play. Of course this stopping behavior had to be taught and seems to need to be taught on a per person basis (i.e. If someone else yells ‘NO’ it doesn’t carry as much weight). The way I got him to listen (enstablished myself as an Alpha?) was by doing something similar to what you were suggested except instead of just grabbing the collar and pushing it to the ground I would then roll Dozer onto his back and put my weight on him. For some reason he doesn’t consider himself to have lost the wrestling match until he is off his feet and unable to regain them.
As far as risk goes, I would disregard the breed specific hype and pay attention to the advise given above with regard to Rowdie’s character and background. After all, you wouldn’t want to be labelled a breedist would you? The Moonbats would have a field day with that one.
Having known Dozer for a his whole life (1 year) and being involved in his upbringing/training I wouldn’t worry about him attacking children, but I also wouldn’t leave little ones unattended with him as he can play pretty rough. He has been introduced to a few of the kids in the neighborhood and treats them no different than new adults that he meets, though again we do have to be carefull as he tends to jump up on new people and that would surely knock a child over. He has also gotten out a couple times and both of our neighbor’s wives have had a chance to fetch him for us while we were at work. Neither had any problem despite the fact the he hadn’t really met either of them.
As far as outside or inside goes, Dozer stays outside for the most part (and has yet to lose his mind) but gets plenty of attention since a few of us go outside to smoke regularly and Dozer gets to come in from time to time. After seeing the damage this dog can do to patio furnature and the like I don’t think he’ll be and inside dog until he grows up.
I hate to say this, but…what were you thinking getting a dog with no fenced in backyard??? I’m sorry, dogs are OUTDOOR animals (ESPECIALLY the big ones), and cats are INDOOR animals, exclusively in both cases.
Outdoor cats face all kinds of risks and have about 1/3rd the lifespan of exclusive indoor cats. They roam, they fight, they exchange feline diseases, they wander too close to dogs and other dangers, etc, etc, etc. There are no successful outdoor cat stories. They all end with the cat missing or dying some horrible death.
Indoor dogs are invariably a problem. No doubt dog lovers will read this and want to post about how successful their indoor relationship has been. Spare me. The only reason you think it’s successful is because your family and friends who aren’t blindly in love with precious care too much about you to tell you how annoying, unnerving, and yes, often frightening your indoor dogs are. They jump, they drool, they scratch, they bark, they tear things up, they’ve got way too much pent up energy. And there’s always that risk they will, in one bad moment, revert to instinct and attack something. Hope when they do that it’s only another animal. Oh yes…”play biting”. “Oh, he’s showing you he likes you. He’s JUST PLAYING.” Really? If I walk up to your son or daughter and “play bite” them, are you going to laugh and think it’s cute?
I’m sorry, I’ve only known one dog in my entire life that was trained well enough to be a candidate for indoors. And IMHO, if my cousin had made him an indoor pet, it would have been cruel. Dogs have too much energy to be cooped up in some stupid house, having to beg permission for a walk or to go to the bathroom. It only works for the blind owner who can’t see how much damage is being done, how annoyed other people are, how inconvenient it is for the pet, and how much risk there really is in having an ANIMAL with too much energy cooped up in too small a space. Heck, go live in someone’s house with cats taunting you, a leash around your neck, sleep in a cage or fenced off kitchen, beg permission to go outside to go to the bathroom or take a walk…most humans would attack given those circumstances.
If you can’t fence in your backyard, try the radio/collar units IF there’s no chance other dogs can get to yours and hurt her. If that doesn’t work…I don’t know Frank, I think you made a big mistake on this one. Every time…EVERY TIME…I come across an indoor dog, I shake my head in amazement: why can’t these people see?
Dogs = Outdoors. Cats = Indoors. Should be obvious from the fact that one is truly potty trainable (box of sand or even a toilet), the other is not, and this is the reverse of their suitability for training in other areas.
Frank,
Take heart. I have two outside dogs, one a mostly Rottweiller mutt and a golden lab. On the inside, I have a mutt that is half coyote (I’m not lying, best/smartest dog I have ever had), and two lazy cats that have been de-clawed.
The outside dogs are very agressive, and will kill intruding pests (we find the ocassional dead rat or oposssum). The Rottweiller mutt in particular is very territorial, and will chase joggers if she is able to dig under the fence.
When we got the coyote as an inside dog (formerly my sister’s dog – she had to give it up as the result of a divorce), I installed a dog door in our bedroom. Not too long later, the cats learned how to use it and now roam around the back yard. I thought the cats would be gonners for sure within a month, but surprisingly, it has been a year with no incident. In fact, I have seen the cats laying around with the dogs! I think that the dogs realize the cats are part of the family, and as a result put up with them. Now, if someone elses cat wanders into the yard, that is a different story. They once had one treed for an entire day before I noticed and saved it.
One more thing Frank; Give no credence to the opinions of those who have not owned a dog or have not at least had prolonged experience with dogs. That would be like taking gun handling advise from a hippy. You’ve got (in my opinion) a very good mix a breeds. Based on my exprience with this mix you will have a friendly, pleasing (sheperd) guard dog (pit).
Good Luck
I’m a LONG time dog guy. Bumper sticker says “The more people I meet the better I like my dog.” T-shirt says “Lord, let me be half as good as my dog thinks I am.”
Bottom line, get rid of the Pit Bull. There’s a reason the breeders don’t call them “PB”s any more. State of CO, I understand, is outlawing them in the state. We lived across the street from people with a PB (1/2 PB according to the woman). My wife was walking our Maltese (Jack Bowwower) and the unleashed PB came after her. The owner got there just in time to stop the attack. Next walk, I went along. Unleashed PB comes thru the screen door as we go by the house on the sidewalk. Woman gets to the sidewalk too late. I killed the dog when it went after my wife.
Police showed up, woman threated me, “dog was great with her kids…”, etc. Never heard any more about it.
Get a Maltese. Or a doxie. Or a rottie. Or anything but a pit bull. They are a dangerous weapon.
Hey Frank and Sarah,
I see you have gotten lots of advice. The author of No Bad Dogs is Barbara Woodhouse, and her methods are effective. Discipline is key with any dog. Remember that among dogs, bitches are dominant, that means that Sarah is the top authority to Brownie.
Tolerate no biting, get an electric fence but be sure you allow her plenty of time with the “pack”. Remember that shephards of any kind will harass and nip if you let them, that is how they moved herds. (We have an Aussie Shepherd) If you do not stop that she will think she can boss you around and that she is dominate.
Make sure she is well socialized in neutral settings with other dogs and people. Dogs take cues from you so if you act apprehensive with her towards other dogs and children, she will think there is something wrong with them.
Give your cats an escape – tall cat furniture or a room only they can escape to. Keep praying about it! If you think you want out, pray for the door to open to a good home.
I think actually she is in an ideal situation. You guys don’t have kids, so by the time you do she should be well trained. By the same token, the cats help her deal with other “pack” members who are beneath her on the totem pole. Sarah is at home a good deal of the time and can devote attention to training and reinforcing good behavior.
Just to reiterate, rank in Brownie’s eyes go along the lines of Sarah, then Frank (as Sarah’s mate), then her then the cats. If she cows Sarah, she thinks she is top banana.
I’ve had dogs since I was 12. I don’t trust pit bulls. Most terriers were bred for hunting, Staffordshires or pit bulls or what ever were bred for pit fighting. The main thing you should worry about is if you would have children in the future. My family’s neighbors got a mixed-breed that ended up looking a lot like Rowdi. They had it since it was a puppy and it was friendly as heck with them, but ended up getting rid of it because they couldn’t keep it from biting the kids they had after the dog was grown.
Hi Frank and Sarah,
My daughter reads your blog frequently, and since I am a professional pet sitter, she requested that I take a look at your post about Rowdi.
First of all , thank God for people like you, who give nice dogs a second chance! Bravo.
I am looking at Rowdi’s pic coming through the cat door, and I do not see any Pit Bull in her. I see Yellow Lab and German Shepherd. There is a lot of Pit hysteria these days, mainly due to stories we hear of bad dog OWNERS. There is something to be said for breed history. Dog breeds have definate tendencies to perform according to what they were bred years and years to do.
But #1 Rowdi is a cross breed. She has “hybrid vigour” or the best traits of both breeds. She looks like Lab and German Shepherd, and should be somewhat goofy, water loving, a dog that herds small children and small animals around by nosing or light nipping, a dog that carries around objects, etc. She has been through a trauma, and actually sounds like she is very even tempered while she tries to figure out what you expect of her.
#2 Dogs are very empathetic and almost scary at how well they process information from our species that runs contrary to dog pack society rules. When you put a dog on a leash, you’re communicating that there is a reason to get close together, stick tight as a pack..possible danger. Many dogs become more aggressive when on a lead because they think they need to defend the owner and feel impowered by the tight connection. When you put her on a lead because you fear for your kitties, you are telling her that the kitties Might Be Dangerous. What you need to do is let her get to know them, even if she gets slapped. When she doesnt retaliate, you praise her with treats and high squeekie praise “GOOD NICE TO THE KITTIES!!!!” If she chases them and you strictly say “ACKKKKK!! NO CHASE THE KITTIES!” in a fierce voice..then immediately when she breaks off following them, “GOOD NICE TO THE KITTIES!!” cheese bits given
this teaches Rowdi..cats are a nuisance, but if I am nice to them I get praised and rewarded.
#3 If you watch her with a paranoid feeling and expression, she will reflect that mood and act wierd. Try to relax. You are on the right track by walking her. If you can get to an off leash dog park and let her play until she’s tired, it will help unstress Everyone.
#4. She wasnt given up for aggression, she was given up for barking. Lots of SWEET dogs have lost homes due to nasty neighbors. My many years of walking with the Lord have taught me that your gut level feeling is usually correct. I think your first instincts about Rowdi were right and you are just nervous good parents of kitties. It will all work out for good. I know it!
Blessings to your family, Reva and Selkie the Dalmatian, Ioduin, Bucky and Queen Daphine (two black cats and One Siamese) and new puppy Sanjuro (half Dal, half Border collie..YIKES!)
I love dogs/cats but the very first time a dog around this house forgets for a instant..who is the alpha animals..(my wife?) and growls or acts like its a challenge….then the animal is checked and checked hard…and if they do it again then its the Arnold routine (the terminator). I grew up in the somewhat rural areas and animals where kept for jobs, if they could not do that job then their lifespan was shortened. Both my children where attacked by dogs…both are alright and have animals…(no neurosis) however the animals that attacked where dispatched by my .45acp quickly….watch Rowdi closely if he grows up knowing who’s boss, then a loving and trusting dog you’ll have…..if not don’t hestitate.
WK
Frank and Sarah,
I’ve seen hundreds of Pitbulls (we go to the local dog beach every week) including the two next door, and Rowdi doesn’t look like a pit. Sort of like our Rhodesian/Chow mix (in the face) that I commented on before, but with a body like a lab. She also looks quite a bit like a lab mix we had. Sweetest dog I’ve ever known, loved kids and would die for them.
My wife and I have had seven dogs over the years, always two or more at a time, with very varied temperments. Also raised two kids with no dog bites. A professional assessment, training and establishing a pecking order are key. I’ve always been “top dog” in our pack, but it doesn’t matter as long as one of you is. Our Pomeranian wanted to be the alpha but we “puppy trained” her first thing by having staring contests. Whoever looks away first in NOT the alpha. It works. Our 10 lb. Pom is #3 in the pecking order, 100 lb. Rhod/Chow is #4. So does a spray bottle as a discipline method. I used one of my kids’ super-soakers to convince the pit next door that barking all night was a bad idea.
Get one or two of the books mentioned above, learn how they think, and enjoy. Dogs WILL try to train YOU, so think about how you react to them.
Every once in a while, she gets excited and has what Sarah calls “crazy eyes” and will jump on us and play bite (light touches with the teeth but bites nonetheless).
That’s called, “Being a dog.” They like to play. From the picture, Rowdi looks well named. It’s only one picture, but that looks like a playful dog. You just have to decide if you want a rowdy, playful dog.
Keeping them separated is not really a good, long-term solution. You have to decide if you trust him. That’s it. The cats will torture him if he is restrained and make him hate them. Didn’t you watch Bugs Bunny or Foghorn Leghorn? Every animal tortures a restrained dog becuase they react so…. strenously. My father used to have a few ducks, they would waddle around the property and always, always, always go about a foot away from where the neighbor’s dog was chained up and just quack up a storm.
Dogs generally fall into three groups, they ignore cats, they try to play with cats or they chase cats. Not all chasers want to catch the cat, by the way.
My advice? Let them all figure out their deal. They’re animals, they have to figure these things out for themselves.
My opinion on dogs is that I won’t own one I can’t trust. Period. I would make sure that I could trust Rowdi with my cats.
One of the advantages of being an old fart is that I remember the waves of hysteria that have gone through the land. There is ALWAYS a killer breed of dog. Before I was born it was the Bulldog, then the German Shepherd. The Doberman then had a turn, the Rottweilers stepped up to the plate.
Now it is the Pit Bull. Eventually the Pit Bull’s turn in the barrel will be over and some other dog will be the Latest New Threat. I may not live long enough for the Vicious Killer Attack Yorkies but you might.
First off, Staffordshires are NOT American Pit Bull Terriers–they’re pits as imagined by the French. The misconception comes from the wimps at the AKC refusing to license pits, so they licensed the lesser dog, the Staff. Thank God for the UKC.
Second, don’t sweat it–it’s the dog & the owner, not the breed. I had an APBT for 16 years. My then-toddler cousins used to hang from his ears & tail, & he’d drag them around. The same people who say “Pit bulls are BAD” are the same sort who say “Guns are EVIL!”
Frank,
We corresponded years ago when you were first thinking of getting a Shepherd. My bona fidas – I worked for AllBreed Dog Training in Ormond Beach as their head trainer. Owned Absolute Dog Training in Orlando for 20 years. Army certified Patrol Dog Trainer who has trained in the neighborhood of 10,000 dogs since 1974, including hundreds of Pit Bull Types and crosses. I may have a clue.
You have gotten so much well intentioned, but horrible advice I don’t know where to start. But how about here?
“Normal dogs of just about every breed can snap and attack kids/owners/etc…”
Horse-shit. Sorry if that’s offensive. But that statement offends me. NO dog “snaps” unless there is a physical problem. A dog with a brain tumor I once attempted to work with springs to mind. There is an aggression ladder that some dogs ascend. Small doses of inappropriate behavior, motivated by prey drive, dominance issues, or territoriality (to name a few) which escalate over time as they are ignored or dealt with improperly>
“(B)ut the problem with pitbulls is that they are so strong, fast, and agile they are deadly when they do (attack). Any other type of dog may snap, but you’ll get away with a few stitches in your arm, while a pitbull will rip apart your neck b/c of their strength, speed, instincts, etc. It’s kind of like asking, is it more likely a German Shepard or a Maltese can snap and kill you? Which would you be more scared of?”
Exactly right. The last survey I read, the Cocker Spaniel was the number one dog in America for reported dog bites, but no one is in a hurry to outlaw the Cocker, are they?
Rowdie may or may not have some Pit genetics, that one picture doesn’t give me enough of a look to guess. (The argument that there is no Pit, but only Staffie is just silly. There are a group of breeds and crossbreeds that were bred to fight other dogs. Staffordshire – Bull Terrier – American Pit Bull Terrier are just three variations on the type. There are many more. While there are a range of differences, they do share some common traits. Tremendous strength and athletic ability, tons of heart and determination, great intelligence, and an aggressive nature. That last is NOT to be read as viciousness.) But it need not matter.
The Pit types are among my very favorite breeds. Yes I have worked with the Pit monsters on which all the hysteria centers. It is ALWAYS the fault of the owners. ALWAYS!
These dogs are simply wonderful animals if taught correct behavior at an early enough age. Or to state it another way, if they are not irretrievably screwed up before their habits patterns are too firmly set. Even then – a trainer with enough skill can usually salvage the dog, though those are in short supply. (He said arrogantly.)
The three problems with Pits are –
1.They are genetically predisposed to be animal aggressive.
2.If bent that way, their higher potential for aggression can lead to monstrous behavior. But I firmly believe they have to be pushed that way for that to happen. Other breeds – the Rott is one – will tend to become more aggressive with age unless taught respect at an early age. Pits normally do not. Not without encouragement.
3.If they become aggressive, they have a higher potential for serious harm because of their greater size, strength, determination, and athletic ability.
“In NM, there has been legislation to ban the dogs from being brought into and/or being bred in the state, because there have been numerous attacks.” And
“State of CO, I understand, is outlawing them in the state.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in Illinois there is legislation before the House to ban almost all gun ownership. Your point–? Ignorance and fear drives bad law in both cases.
Good advice — “The suggestion to make her an “outside dog” is not only wrong, but dangerous. Dogs are pack animals, and become psychotic if deprived of companionship.” Amen and amen.
“You really, really need to work with a good trainer or behaviorist, (behaviorists- IMAO- are much better at analyizing behavior and giving it fancy names, then they are at modifying behavior. You need a good trainer.) both to evaluate Rowdie and to reenforce behaviors that will make her a safe companion.” This is your solution right here. She is displaying behavior that is of mild concern, but certainly not that shocks or scares. If corrected right now.
“Run screaming from anyone who starts talking about shock collars, “breaking” a dog, showing the dog who is boss or using physical force (hitting, pinching, alpha roll).” More hysterical crap. While shock collars have VERY limited utility, and punching a dog is never called for, you MUST establish dominance over the dog. If Momma dog and the pack leader uses the Alpha Roll, why does that suddenly become cruel if a human does it? The pack leader uses their mouth. I have no teeth on my hand. Which is more gentle?
“–(T)raining and establishing a pecking order are key.” Absolutely. And canines in packs don’t stand around and have long discussions about who is the boss. If IMMEDIATE obedience/submission is not given to the pack leader, someone gets attacked and thrown. Watch the Discovery Channel for God’s sake. They almost never hurt one another. But the point is made forcefully. “One good, effective correction is worth worlds more than picking on the poor dog 20 times.”
“If you hear terms like “clicker training” or “operant conditioning” you’re on the right track” Uh-huh. Another poster discussed giving the pup cheese every time she was around the cats and did not jump them. Riiiiight. Every time I go past a bank and do not rob it, they give me a five-dollar bill. No wait. That’s not right. They threaten me with punishment if I break the law.
What makes human society work, and dogs obey, are exactly the same motivations. We are rewarded for what we do right (a pay check, success, the love and respect of those we care about, that nice warm feeling in the pit of your stomach for doing something noble) and punished for misbehavior (embarrassment, loss of that love and respect, fines for breaking the law, jail time). Dogs function the same way, but on a more simple level. It is pointless to sit around and explain to them how their behavior is upsetting to you. Physical punishment for transgressions, and love, petting, and praise for a positive response will be readily understood by your pup. And, no, it will not damage her wittle psyche
Most of the horror stories and bad advice you are being given is because people are terrified of reasonable punishment for animal misbehavior. No one wants to abuse or mistreat a poor animal. But it is a larger symptom of societies reluctance to enforce any behavior. Murders serve 5 years, juvenile offenders serve nothing, and parents won’t discipline their kids. And the stupidity is even more blatant in the animal world. Canine packs give us a blueprint for dealing with our doggy friends. Dogs are born with a genetic understanding of how to function in a pack. Their mothers reinforce that in the first two months of litter training. That’s why it is illegal in the state of Florida to sell a puppy at less than 8 weeks.
“Have you considered an “invisible fence” (buried electric)?” Excellent idea for occasional unsupervised playtime outside. Also simplifies the whole housebreaking thing.
More good advice – “And now that I know she’s a pit – use that choke chain. Pits are BRED for ungodly-thick necks and chests – a regular leash, or a chain that’s not used properly, is just “Oh, I feel like doing what your faint, fly-speck pressure on my neck indicates you want me to do”.”
A correction must be harsh enough that she is motivated to do, or refrain from doing, what you desire. Many pits are strong enough that you may need to escalate to a pinch collar. This looks like a medieval torture device, but it is NOT going to hurt Fluffy. It is designed to amplify a normal correction by about a factor of 5, if she is not impressed by a normal correction given by a training (choke) collar.
AllBreed Dog Training has always had fairly good trainers. K9 Enforcement looks like a guy with the qualifications I would be looking for. Both are in the Daytona area. In home dog training is my preference. It will run much more than $75.00. Around $350 — 450 would be my guess. But the trainer should work with the dog first. They will get much faster results than you will, as they do this for a living. But additionally, they will work with you. Training owners is the harder part of the equation. But if you understand how to correct the dog you can deal with any issues that should occur further down the road.
Quick summary of dealing with your issues-
When the pup jumps or playbites —
Firm (read HARD!) correction — every single time! Praise immediately when her feet are on the floor, or her mouth is off your arm. Praise may encourage her to repeat the undesirable behavior out of excitement. So correct her again. It may seem like a frustrating cycle at first. Yes, she may be confused initially. But she ain’t stupid. She will figure out- Jumping is uncomfortable. Sitting or standing at your feet is pleasant. Easy! If you cannot correct that behavior in three days or less, you are not doing it right. Period! NEVER fails.
What kind of correction? A quick, snappy, hard jerk on her training collar with the leash. (Don’t pull — jerk!) Or an open handed swat in the rib cage. Should sting your hand. WILL NOT harm Fifi! But you MUST immediately coax her back to you (If she acts terrified, don’t worry –and don’t feel guilty!) and pet, praise, and love on her. Having her on a leash makes this more simple. Still must immediately follow a correction with praise.
You will be unsuccessful if your corrections are not harsh enough to get a negative reaction out of the dog. Or if you are inconsistent. If the fine for speeding were $1.00 would it encourage you to alter your behavior? What if half the time it was ignored? (Which is why many of us speed. We often get away with it.) But if EVERY time you sped, without fail, it cost you $500.00, how long would you persist? Not long, I would imagine.
Kitties and kids-
Simplest to set up the situation with pup on a leash. Approach the cats. Curiosity, sniffing, etc. is fine. Praise her for responding in a calm manner. ANY aggressive behavior — bumping, lunging, jumping, mouthing- should be corrected VERY harshly. You will NOT hurt her with a leash and collar. Her pain threshold is 8 — 10 times yours. And her neck is designed to take the stress of stopping a full-grown elk in its tracks at 35 mph. (Watch the Discovery Channel again.) Try that with your teeth sometime. She ought to yelp, or flinch, or react in some way. It’s SUPPOSED to be unpleasant!
(But if she yelps, doesn’t that prove that she’s hurt? Have someone touch you on the back of the neck with an ice cube when you are not expecting it. See if you yelp. Did it hurt? Not hardly. But it would be an unpleasant surprise. Bingo.
And everyone knows the only time children cry is when they are incredible pain. Right???? Or when they are startled, or unhappy, or want attention, or DON’T GET THEIR OWN WAY!
Hey, maybe dogs yelp for reasons other than being in agony. Whadyathink?)
After a few calm seconds. Walk her away from the cat and pour on the praise with a bucket. Sweet talk and petting. NO cookies. Repeat these little sessions several times in a row, several days in a row. Soon the cat will be unable to get a reaction from her.
Later I would bring the cat in the same room with Rowdie when she is on a leash and drop the cat right under her nose. If she reacts, bust her. She should learn to ignore, any provocation offered by the kitties. You will want to graaadually begin to leave her and the cats alone for slowly increasing period of time as she earns your trust.
I would do exactly the same thing with kids. Ask the neighborhood kids to approach her and correct any aggressive behavior. Build up to gentle ear tugging. Pulling on her feet. Tugging on her flank (the web of skin that connects her hip to her belly). Save this for last. This is one of the few sensitive areas on your dog — along with the bridge of her nose, and testicles, if she came so equipped. You are child proofing the pup. Kids do dumb things. A child may pull on a sensitive area and ripping their face off is not an acceptable response. But build up to it, and encourage gentleness from your child helpers. Your kid should be able to climb all over and pull and tug on the dog with impunity.
None of these things are really hard. IF you use a correct, commonsense approach. Good luck.
Sorry to go on and on. I’m posting this rather long-winded rant in hopes of educating some of the others here as well. Unfortunately, since most people that have owned a dog think that makes them an expert, I’m not optimistic. (I’ve owned cars all my life. Must make me a mechanic, huh?)
It just drives me nuts to see all the self appointed “experts” weighing in with their wrong-headed old wives tales. Dogs are NOT hairy little people. They are dogs. So one must understand how they think and reason to effectively teach them. Proper discipline, balanced with lots of love and affection, will ensure your dog respects you and your rules, yet is not intimidated or cowed. If we do that correctly they will repay the effort one hundred fold with their love, loyalty and companionship.
Bruce